That said, we both enjoyed the movie. I saw it in Ann Arbor when it was on tour, and have also seen in on BluRay since it's release. My buddy had to wait as he's in Australia and it didn't release as quickly there as it did here in the U.S. So here is our long awaited discussion.
What follows is the transcript of what we talked about. I bring it to you mostly unedited. A few comments not related to the discussion were removed though.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Currently rewatching Red State so I can blog about it better
- I know we spoke on it briefly before. But what did you think?
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- If I didn't say it, and I know I still have to do my mini review, I'll get to it, the movie leaves me with mixed feelings
- Sure. Especially with that ending.
- I'm totally glad he didn't go full apocalypse with the ending though.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- I mean, Kevin tries to make some of the churchies sympathetic, like that woman who wants to get the kids out, but by this point in the movie, we're not buying it. And as for the main characters, well, they're not exactly 100% sympathetic either
- That's the point though. It's real life. No one is 100% good or evil.
- I loved Goodman's work though. He really owned the role.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Oh I know, but it seems like we're being goaded into believing there are shades of grey, when this is actually one of those times when it might just BE in black and white
- Oh Goodman's one of the good factors
- and I LOVE the ending. it's near perfect.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- And that's the other thing: why bother trying to make her look sympathetic? We know she's not, stop insisting that she is, Mr. Smith. She threw her lot in, knowing FULL FUCKING WELL what shit could go down, and she stayed. They always know. You can't NOT know in this day and age. As prejudiced as this may seem, she had a choice and she chose poorly
- But choices aren't that simple either.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Yeah, the ending worked for me too.
- She chose to stay with her family.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- No but when someone says "God says hate these people, so hate them or leave", isn't there something in your head that says "Why would God hate his own creation?"
- But maybe she stayed to try to protect the youth.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- The youth which have been corrupted. They are undeserving of protection
- or she just didn't know. If you are raised on an island, or that is all you ever know. Maybe she didn't know any better.
- that was her trying to overcome the corruption.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- I highly doubt she's lived a sheltered life, like some troll under a bridge, or the family in Flowers In The Attic
- Why?
- I mean they have a compound. Is it that hard to believe that she hasn't had outside influences?
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Here's something I don't understand: she knows the bible, one assumes. She knows the compound has guns. Are you telling me she can't question "Hey, why do we have guns when the bible says Thou shalt not kill?" Is she incapable of thinking for herself?
- For me, yes it is hard to believe
- But she was raised to know the bible as taught by Abin Cooper.
- I mean to you or me, rational thinking people, we get this. But if it is all she has ever known. I can se it from that perspective.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Which actually might make it worse, since she has no moral compass that says "People dying by the hands of others= horrible"
- We may not know what it's like for her, but that doesn't excuse her from trying to do things for herself
- *not trying
- I get what you mean. But again, if you are not taught to do things for yourself, you don't know you should be.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- OK, you have a point with that. But then, it's not like she has to ask permission to do every little thing either
- or maybe she did. We don't fully know.
- Though I doubt it. I'm sure you are right there.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- I've just reached the point where the guy fakes her shooting him and tells her to go. She's trying to get the kids out, and this isn't too long after the gunplay has started. If she couldn't think for herself, it would have taken much longer or wouldn't have happened.
- unless that's the point where she realized things she was taught were wrong.
- or her need to protect the kids has overwhelmed her life teachings. etc.
- This could be a great podcast if we were in the same room.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Still, that's a pretty quick heel-face turn
- It would, this is why it's good to debate with you, we respect each other's position without thinking the other is stupid for holding it
- Unlike the people in this movie, who think the other side is evil and needs to die
- I also see the quick turn around there though simply as "movie time" as in she needed to get it so the movie could advance.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Here's another thing: maybe I missed it when I was typing, but when she confronts Jared, and he tells her she can go fuck herself, she never apologizes for what her family has done. I know it wasn't her fault directly, but she never addresses it. She shows NO sympathy for Jared's friends, makes no attempt. It's like "Don't care, want to save babies". Now, you could say she's focused on the children, but the fact that she makes no attempt to make amends, or shows remorse, doesn't help her character. And also, it made him more hostile because he could see she didn't care
- but she probably had not social skills. So she didn't know that she should have remorse, or know what remorse is for that matter. She also might think that the family is right (based on her education) and that the police are wrong and is simply trying to save the babies
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- But if her family is right, then she shouldn't be taking the children out, because that's a sign of weakness and betrayal
- right or wrong, if they all die it's bad. Her goal didn't depend on being right, just survival
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- But in groups like that, isn't being right exactly what they want most? They're willing to die for Jesus.
- maybe, but ultimately survival wins out I would imagine.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Then maybe she should have thought about that a long time ago, back when the topic of "So, guns are good, let's have some here" came up
- but you are giving your own rationale to that again.
- She may not have known any better.
- You only know the sky is blue because you were taught that. If you were taught from birth that the sky was green, and no other influence told you otherwise, that's what you would believe.
- until someone starting shooting ar you because of it.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- If you're confronted with guns and you can't think of all the possibilities that it entails, then there is something wrong with you
- no one is denying that.
- but if from birth they are around, you wouldn't give them a second thought.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- But as soon as I saw something that debunked a fact like that, I would start questioning everything. And for her, when guns came into play, that should be the trigger (no pun intended) for her to open up a dialogue within herself
- especially if no one was around to tell you othersie
- otherwise
- and as you saw, when she started getting shot at, she quickly wanted at. So that supports your position.
about an hour agoDavid Scanlan- Yeah but I doubt they bought those the night before. No one buys that many guns just for decoration
- didn't say they did. But she didn't know that they shouldn't be around before that.
59 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- No but she would know what a gun would be used for, it's not something you take lightly. She would know what a bullet can do
- How would she know if no one taught her?
58 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- She has access to the outside world, one imagines. It's not like they're Amish or time displaced
- I imagine that she didn't
- the pastor and his wife kept them all in the compound.
- except when they were taken out to protest, and still then they are kept as a group, and apart from society
57 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- Considering how good most of them are with a gun, I can't see them not training her how to use one
- sure, trained how to defend yourself with it in case you need to.
56 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- That's still knowledge enough for even the most closed off person to go "Hey, this could kill innocent people, right? Why are we shooting people?"
- Plus your conceit that "guns are evil" is a big assumption as well. Guns don't kill people
- Or as it was drilled into you, You are the innocent and society hates you. You could use it to save your own life.
54 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- I never said guns were evil, just that it's not something you get on a whim. It's not like "So, I was at the store, buying groceries, and I saw this gun on sale and I was like, great price, I have to get one!"
- but for all they know that is how you get them.
52 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- OK, I'll give you that one. I'm just saying, a child that gets used as a sex slave doesn't grow up thinking that's all they are in life, and I doubt the same goes for people in compounds. Deep down, people do know the difference between good and bad. The key is listening to that voice and choosing the path from there
- I think you give the human race too much credit. People that are taught morals know the difference between right and wrong. People with no moral compass may not. I don't know, I've never met one.
- But if that is all you have even known, not had any outsid influences, you may not ahve that influence.
49 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- But then, how is she so quick to determine "This is wrong, I have to get the kids out" if she hasn't got one. It's not like "The people that aren't us are shooting us. This confuses me." It's more like "Death to people not like us!" *BLAM!* "Oh no, I'm wrong all of a sudden, time to be good now!"
- she didn't determine that the actions were wrong though, jsut that the kids needed to be saved from death.
48 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- Which means she didn't believe they were right, or else she would have stayed and said "We're all dying for Jesus today"
- she decided that iregardless of who was right or wrong, the babies needed to live.
- Live to fight another day could have been her mantra too though.
- and let the kids too young to decide for themselves to die, live
45 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- OK, I agree with the first point but with the second, I was under the impression they were all raised with "You will die for Jesus, you cannot argue with me on that" especially since at least one of the kids made anti-gay slurs, implying they are brainwashed early on
- Sure I do agree with you on that.
- That doesn't mean that in an actual situation where death is imminent that you wouldn't decide to save the babies
44 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- I'm not saying "You are evil, die die die" to her, I'm just saying "I don't trust you and I wouldn't turn my back on you"
- If she had just apologized, even the smallest of ones, that's all it would take for me to say "Perhaps this one can be saved"
- I wouldn't turn my back on anyone with an assauklt rifle either.
43 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- Wait, I thought she had a pistol
- right
- but the cops has rifles
- *had
42 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- Oh, I meant her, my bad
- Yeah, I agreed that I wouldn't turn my back on her.
- and then said that I wouldn't on them either.
42 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- I mean "Considering how you haven't tried to meet me eye-to-eye on this, how can I believe you?"
- She was probably going to kill Jared, you know, once he served her purpose
- Faeries Nuts
41 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- What happened>?
- I doubt that, just because he would have been leaving with the kids.
- Otherwise I agree with you though.
37 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- And that, in a nutshell, is why I don't buy it. She wasn't showing she was capable of remorse, just self-preservation. But the movie, to me, makes it seem like she's working for redemption
- See, I just don't see it as seeking redemption, just preservation.
- She doesn't think they did anything wrong.
29 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- Well, you get what I mean. My point is, the movie is painting her in a more sympathetic light when the evidence provided doesn't look that way.
- I see that you see it that way. It's just not the way I saw it.
- Though I also have a much more jaded worldview than you do.
28 minutes agoDavid Scanlan- So you see what I did there?
- I do
Released: 2011Directed by Kevin Smith
Cast:Michael Parks as Pastor Abin Cooper
John Goodman as ATF Special Agent KeenanMelissa Leo as SarahKerry Bishé as CheyenneMichael Angarano as TravisKyle Gallner as JaredNicholas Braun as Billy Ray
No comments:
Post a Comment